EL84 vs. 6V6 vs. 5881
I recently converted a Blues Junior to octal output sockets so it could run 6V6 or 5881s instead of EL84s. I’d done a couple of these years ago, but I had to ship one to Italy and the owner of the other one traded it away for a guitar, so I never got much time to dig in and experiment. I’ve had more time with this one and have some additional thoughts about output tubes.
As I mentioned on the “Very Special Blues Junior” page, output tube performance is largely about surface area. The more plate area you have for the electrons to hit, the more power you can push through the tubes. Of course, the cathode has to get bigger to emit more electrons, and the heater has to consume more power in order to boil off the additional electrons. That extra heater/filament power is often the reason that you can’t put larger tubes into an amp that is maxing out its power transformer. The transformer can overheat and the the voltages in the amp can sag under load as you increase the volume.
I was concerned about heater load when I did the conversion, and wondered if I would be limited to 6V6s or whether I could go to a bigger tube in the same family, namely the 5881, also known as the 6L6GB. The 5881/6L6GB has a maximum plate dissipation of 23 watts, compared to the 30 watts of a 6L6GC. So I did some measurements of filament power consumption. Here’s what I found:
The stock EL84 is supposed to draw 700 milliamps of filament power. I tested a bunch of them and they all drew between 830 and 845 mA. 6V6s are roughly equivalent to EL84s electrically, but they were designed for 1950s car radios, so the filament is designed for 450 milliamps to help conserve the battery. This table shows what I actually measured for a single tube:
| Tube | Heater draw, mA | Plate dissipation, W |
| EL84 | 830 | 12 |
| GE 6V6GT | 580 | 14 |
| Electro Harmonix 6V6GT | 560 | 14 |
| JJ 6V6S | 650 | 14? |
| Tung-Sol 5881 | 980 | 23 |
As you can see, the EL84 is almost as power-hungry as the 5881, but is only about half as powerful in terms of wattage. The NOS GE 6V6 and the current-production EH 6V6 are essentially the same in power draw. This is a small sample, but it appears that 6V6s never quite met the 450mA spec.
The JJ 6V6-S is an interesting case–it draws more heater current, but not as much as the 5881, yet its plate structure is almost as large as the 5881. I’m sure it’s capable of higher output than the traditional 6V6GT. It’s often used in 40-60 watt 6L6 amps where players want less power and headroom, earlier breakup. Among 6V6 tubes, it’s the only one that can handle the high plate voltages of these amps.
In these pictures, you can see the plate sizes and get a feel for where the power handling comes from:
From left to right: JJ EL84, GE NOS 6V6GT, Electro Harmonix 6V6GT, JJ 6V6-S, Tung-Sol 5881. When we turn the tubes a bit, you can get a better idea of the difference in plate size:
The EL84 packs as much plate as it can into its noval (9-pin) envelope. The 6V6GTs are thin, but the 6V6-S and the 5881 have large, boxy plate structures that gives a lot of surface area.
Putting larger tubes with higher wattage ratings into your amplifier won’t automatically give you more power or a louder amp. The actual output power is determined by the power supply, the output tube, and the output transformer. But larger plates generally mean better bass performance. But running a “big” tube designed for higher voltages at a lower point on its operating curve limits its headroom and provides earlier/different distortion than you’d experience at higher voltages. In fact, you could put 6L6GCs in there because they have the same nominal 1000 mA heater draw as the 5881/6L6GB. But the additional plate area won’t help because the power supply really does run out of gas at some point. The 5881s can’t produce maximum power, so larger tubes won’t either.
In terms of my Blues Junior mods, it comes down to this:
- The Blues Junior has enough power supply headroom to run larger output tubes
- The greater current draw of the 5881 does not cause appreciable high voltage sag
- If you go for octal socket conversion, there is no reason not to run 5881s as opposed to 6V6s
- With other mods in place, maximum output is bumped to around 25 watts, limited by the power supply
The JJ 6V6-S bears further investigation. It consumes less heater power than an EL84 but has significantly larger plate area. In the future, I’ll do some power/tone comparisons with the 5881, but it appears that the JJ would be a great choice for 2 x 6V6 amps like the Princeton Reverb, Deluxe Reverb, and Super Champ XD.
can octal sockets be put in a fender pro junior? can a pro junior run 6v6 tubes?
Yes, you can put octals in a PJ, but the bias circuit would require a more extensive revision to generate a higher negative voltage to run 6V6s.
So can a BJ be converted to 6V6s and then use Yellow Jackets to run back on El84s when the mood strike you?
Well, yes, you could, but the Yellow Jackets wouldn’t sound much like the stock Blues Junior. They’re cathode biased and the output power and headroom would be lower than stock.
Bill
Iv recently done most of your Mods via my local friendly Amp Engineer over here in London, namely Tone stack, twin stack, power stiffening and the upgraded transformer from your self. I didnt do the cathode follower Mod.
Im now intrigued by the idea of sticking some 5881′s in along with the cothode follower Mod.
I have found some 5881′s from Watford Valves here in London “5881/HARMA-CRYO” the cryo treated ones.
What would you recomend as a good match to upgrade the 12AX7′s?
I’m idealy looking for more clean head room and a nice warm spongey clean sound which I can then drive with pedals?
The 5881 conversion is not a clean headroom amp by any stretch of the imagination. It’s a bit louder in the clean range, but it’s mostly a growly, down-and-dirty blues amp. The 5881s would need a lot more plate voltage for more clean headroom. I think cryo tubes are a waste of money.
I Bill,
First thank’s for your mods!!!!
What do i need for replace EL84 by 6L6? What have i to do?
It’s for use with a rhodes, i’m looking for more bass.
I think the Blues Junior is the wrong amp for a keyboard. Even with more power, an open-back amp is never going to produce as much bass as you probably want, unless it’s a big cabinet with more that 40 watts available.
The BJr power transformer can’t deliver enough power to run 6L6s effectively. I would recommend a solid state amp with a closed back for your Rhodes. It doesn’t have to be expensive to sound decent.
Bill, if I may – the “reference amp” for voicing and tuning of the Stage model Rhodeses at the factory was the Fender Twin Reverb and the speakers in the cabinet of Suitcase models were open on both sides. The Rhodes Stage output was at guitarlike levels and impedances and worked just fine with tube or solid state guitar amps; the Suitcase models and the Satellite speaker cabinet sets used solid state amps.
Prodatlantis might consider an honest-to-goodness FTR or a Dual Showman with the 15s if he wants to stick with classic Fender amps, but your recommendation is still very valid. My brother used a 1970s closed-back Epiphone amp with a single 15″ for his Stage 73.
Three of my favorite mods, which I’ve done a number times are: install 6V6 power tubes in a blackface (or silver face) fender head, convert to Cathode Bias (500 ohm 10 watt resistor, 10 microfarad bypass) , and then add tube driven reverb (use the bass channel tubes for drive and return). The Bassman comes close to being perfect with these mods…
I really don’t think the BJr can handle 6L6 power tubes. The power transformer just doesn’t have the juice to do them justice and I’d bet that if you played it that way for a few hours the power trany would be too hot to touch. I like the 6V6 mod however. I think Cathode Bias sounds good as well (300 ohm 5 watt resistor, 22 microfarad bypass), it adds a little grain and sparkle. I have never found cathode biasing to rob all that much power from an amp. Everybody says it will, but I don’t hear it, and I’ve tried it on probably 20 different amps…
The heather current of the EL84 is 0.76A
The ones I measured all drew more, as I mentioned above.
I know your not a huge proponant of Mercury Magnetics OT. But I would imagine them to be up to the task, as long as your pockets are deep enough. Yes?
Sure, if you want to spend money on a name instead of performance. I think there’s a difference between “up to the task” and “best.”
Is there any purpose in moding a pro junior? If so, what are the most common?
You can’t really do all that much to a Pro Junior, but here are some mods that I did to mine:
PJ Mods
I enjoy these smaller combo amps etc and actually thinking of building one in the future for fun. Would it be worthwhile using 6v6 instead of el84? is there really that much of a difference in volume, clean headroom? Thanks. Great job on your newest mods and fun with the blues junior.
Every output tube has its characteristic tone, and the 6V6 is glassier, airier than the EL84. The EL84 has a great grind tone, however, so it comes down to taste. The difference in volume is rather small.
I have a pair of JJ 6V6′s I would like to put in my Super Champ Xd to replace the Stock Groove Tube Black Glass. What should I bias to? 40 as usual?
I think the JJs sound better biased a little hotter. Try 45 or 50mV.
I just purchased a super champ XD.. . two nights ago I played bass to a guitarist with a super loud modded Blues Junior(OT modded) Will these tube mods work on a super champ too? Will it match up the that BJ in volume?
hi bill…have you ever changed the power transformer and ran 6l6s?..i really would love to hear what it would sound like.
There is no PT that fits and provides all the right voltages. You would have to completely rework the bias circuit, too. Better to cut down a Blues Deluxe!
hi bill..is the cathode follower mod just as easy to do with the 6v6s as with the el84s? your diagrams show how to do it on the EL84s but wahts does it look like with the 6v6s( i mean the pcb socket holder part)?
thanks Mel
The mod is identical. It happens two stages before the output tubes, so there’s no difference whether you’re running 6V6 or EL84.
HI BILL..HOW CAN IT BE IDENTICAL IF YOU CUT OFF A 1/3 OF THE PCB/SOCKET HOLDERS THAT ARE SHOWN ON THE EL84 DIAGRAM FOR THE 6V6S.. HOW ARE CONNECTED FOR THE 6V6 HOLDERS DO YOU HAVE ANY PICTURES?
THANKS MEL
You can figure it out from the tube diagrams… or you can buy the kit. I’ve done all the heavy lifting for you.
I saw an article about Neil Young’s tweed deluxe that he runs 6L6′s in, and has a fan on the amp… would putting a fan on it in this case help? what about a different back panel that gives it a little more ventilation? Also I saw a pic of a Kendrick amp that has a clear plexiglass back panel so you can see the circuit… would that work on the Blues Jr or doesn’t it need to have shielding foil on the inside?
I’ve installed fans on a couple of Blues Juniors. There’s a simple circuit that draws power from the filament line and converts it to DC. A clear back panel is just for show–you really should have the shielding.
6L6s/5881s fully load the BLues Junior’s power supply; there’s barely enough power on tap to get full power out of the 5881s, not enough bias voltage for 6L6GCs.
Have you ever encountered mechanical tube rattle? Combo amps are the worst for it and so are El84′s. My blues jr. has this problem and I was thinking about putting 6v6s in because they are less prone to rattling.
Filament rattle and microphonic grids can happen in any tube. I agree that EL84s are somewhat prone to it.
If i do end up doing the octal conversion, and i use 5881′s, my amp wont catch fire or anything, will it?
Won’t catch fire, but it will be running the power transformer at full capacity, with insufficient bias voltage for complete control over the 5881s. As I keep saying: At your own risk.
hey bill…can i put a choke on my bj?..would it be worth it if you can?
You could install a choke. I doubt that it would be worth the effort.
hi bill..why is that? it would be easy enough to do , wouldnt it?..i thought you would have experimented with one by now.
thanks
Why would I? It just adds weight and another magnetic field. Capacitive filtering is plenty good.
Bill, I’m running JJ 6v6 biased at 24ma in my PRRI. Do you think this is okay, too hot? I’ve read that you think they can take abuse, but just want to confirm I’m not pushing things too much. As an aside, do you have a preferred bias for JJ’s in the PRRI? Thanks in advance if you have time to offer your thoughts….
I’m going to assume that your plate voltage is around 375 volts, which is typically what I see in PRRIs. That would make your idle 9 watts, which is fine for the JJs. I generally go for 50mV on the 1 ohm resistor with the JJs, which is 25mA per tube, essentially the same as your setting.
Thanks again for the response. Makes me feel better that I’m probably going to melt my amp to the ground! By the way, I just read on Jim Campilongo’s site that he biases his PRs and PRRIs at around 30 per tube. Sounds crazy to me, but he does sound pretty good….
Have you had any experience using an EL34 output tube pair (or wise advice thereof!), thanks over many times
EL34s draw way too much filament power. No chance.
hi Bill,i just got a blues junior and wanted to get more clean headroom and volume from it to use with my archtop for wes,benson,green kind of stuff and i wondered what you would suggest i do to it and just which mods i should use?.regards.Dan.
The basic mods, TwinStack and presence control will give you far more tonal flexibility. The TO20 output transformer will give it a more professional, “boutique” tone.